In this episode, we go into how energy medicine can complement traditional talk therapy. Mary Grigsby, a seasoned therapist trained in both traditional and alternative healing modalities, discusses her approach to integrating energy medicine into psychotherapy. The conversation covers practical energy medicine techniques, the role of the body’s energy systems in emotional regulation, and ethical considerations. Mary also demonstrates several simple energy medicine practices that listeners can try immediately.
- Ethical considerations and training
- Energy medicine techniques for trauma and substance abuse
- Practical energy medicine exercises
- Comparing energy medicine and Reiki
MEET Mary Grigsby
Mary is a seasoned therapist with training in both traditional and alternative healing modalities. She brings a deep respect for the body’s innate wisdom and its ability to guide the healing process. Her approach is holistic, integrating knowledge from functional and integrative medicine with practices such as mindfulness, EMDR, and Brainspotting. Mary’s training in Donna Eden’s Energy Medicine (EEM) has expanded her ability to support clients who may not respond to conventional talk therapy. She has successfully used EEM in a wide range of contexts—including cancer treatment support, infertility, organ transplant recovery, digestive issues, and chronic pain. It has proven especially effective for individuals who are either reluctant to discuss their challenges or who are too anxious or dysregulated to benefit from traditional therapeutic approaches. Providing adjunct energy work is one of Mary’s greatest passions. In this role, she focuses on addressing trauma and areas where clients feel stuck, while their primary therapist continues to support other aspects of their healing journey.
Find out more at Counseling in Durham, NC
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Transcript
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Chris McDonald: [:From subtle practices that restore balance to approaches that empower clients in their own healing journey. You'll discover how energy medicine is shaping the future of psychotherapy. You'll also experience some energy medicine practices that you can use right away. Tune in and see what lies beyond talk therapy on today's episode of Yoga in The Therapy Room Podcast.
Thanks for being here.
wer therapists like you with [:So whether you're here to expand your skills, enhance your self-care, or both. You are in the right place. Join me on this journey to help you be one step closer to bringing yoga into your therapy room.
Welcome to the Yoga in the Therapy Room podcast, the non-traditional therapist guide to integrating yoga to your therapy practice. I'm Chris McDonald, licensed therapist and yogi. Happy to be here with you today. I just got back from a lot of time off. I went to France and still trying to get my bearings in my business and private practice and personal life.
with friends there, and just [:So I think as therapists, just a reminder too, to be able to take time off as much as you possibly can. I know it's financial constraints for all of us, but whatever you can do to make sure you have that time for you. Just a reminder for those that weren't aware, there are only a few episodes left in this podcast if you missed it.
I talk about more about this in episode 2 51. Go back to that if you haven't heard that, but there's a lot of reasons why I'm not gonna get into that right now, but I will be talking about that in my journey through podcasting on November 5th episode, and lessons learned. And it's a lot of mixed bag of feelings, some loss, some sadness, you know, some relief in some ways 'cause it is a big undertaking to always have a podcast, but learn more in that November 5th episode and 2 51.
nd being a part of this show [:This conversation is for you. We'll explore how energy medicine approaches can help restore balance, release stuck energy, and empower clients to heal on a deeper whole body level. We're gonna go into the body where deeper healing. Often begins, and here to guide us on this journey is Mary Grigsby. She's a seasoned therapist with training in both traditional and alternative healing modalities.
ral powerful energy medicine [:Welcome to the Yoga in the Therapy Room podcast. Mary. Hey, welcome. Thank you. Yeah. Can you share with listeners what interested you in energy medicine?
Mary Grigsby: This was really one of those experiences where I was walking in a bookstore and no live book jumped off the shelf in my head. Isn't that crazy? And yeah, was immediately drawn to it.
Some of the things I love about it is that it's very empowering. Anyone can do, do these techniques. They're very, very simple to do, easy to learn, so it's very empowering for people to learn how to do their own, manage their own energies. And also, I studied with Donna Eden, who literally wrote her first book was entitled Energy Medicine.
to go and find information. [:It's very, very comprehensive and so I just, I find it's a great adjunct to therapy. People who are stuck, people who for whom talk therapy just doesn't seem to get at it, or there's so deeply in freeze mode that they can't really access things. Energy medicine is a wonderful way to. Bypass that prefrontal cortex and get things moving in the body first, so then it can loosen up and they can make use of the therapy that, or any other modality for that matter.
Chris McDonald: Yeah, no, I appreciate that and we love all these modalities that are for people that traditional therapy is not enough for. 'cause people need more, don't they?
Mary Grigsby: Yes. Talk therapy, and I've been in this as a long time and talk therapy is just not. It's not for everyone. It's not always the best modality by itself.
Yeah. By itself. Exactly.
Chris McDonald: [:Mary Grigsby: There are many, many schools of energy, of working with energy these days. I, as I said, I studied with a woman named Donna Eden. If you wanna. Investigate more about her work.
Her website is InnerSource I-N-N-E-R-S-O-U-R-C e.net. Got a lot of information about her and we can have that in the
Chris McDonald: show notes too.
Mary Grigsby: Okay, great. And she has, uh, videos, et cetera. YouTuber, you'll find tons of videos on her. She was someone who saw energy and ex and felt it all her life. In fact, her mother really promoted.
illnesses early in her life [:There's nothing more that. Traditional medicine can do for you. She had two small girls at that time and she was like, nobody is gonna raise these kids but me. So she started working with her own energy and healed herself. What she developed, two basic principles about energy. It wants to flow. It wants to flow in certain directions.
There's certain patterns that it wants to move in, and it's really quite simple. If we get out of the way and let the energy move, we are healthier. Our bodies are healthier. Our emotions are healthier. So energy medicine is really just helping the body to, and the energy systems in the body to free up and flow in the patterns that they want to flow in and create and foster the most health for the system.
Chris McDonald: How do you
er suggest certain exercises [:So that's one way. For some people, I will simply say, you know, it seems like you are having difficulties here. This is a, and you have a modality that can be very helpful and free things up. Are you open to hearing more about that? And if they are, then we'll talk about it. And the session, an energy session is on a massage table.
They're fully clothed except for shoes and glasses, and it is hands on. So I use kinesiology, which is muscle testing to see. What's going on in the body. I don't just, I do sense a lot of it and see a lot of it, but I want to double check, always double check with the body, what is it detailing me? What is it needing and wanting?
ants from there and begin to [:Chris McDonald: So is there any ethical considerations you've had to navigate with this energy medicine?
Mary Grigsby: Yes. I have a separate statement that describes what energy medicine is and what it isn't that describes, it's a hands-on method. Uh, and I have a separate form that they have to fill out, release form they have to fill out that says, yeah, they're okay with being touched. And they know, you know what this is, and I've explained it to 'em.
Because I know touch in therapy can be
Chris McDonald: controversial
Mary Grigsby: at times. Yes. That was the hardest thing for me to put over when I started. Ooh. It was really hard to touch people.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. So what is your licensure? Can you share that? Yeah.
Mary Grigsby: I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor.
Chris McDonald: Okay. Yeah, so, because I know some people say that we can do it, we can't do it.
I keep hearing both. I don't know if you've run against that with colleagues.
into it a lot and I've been [:So I do maintain a separate liability, but we can, we can do touch. Yeah.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. And what kind of training is involved for, for this kind of energy medicine?
Mary Grigsby: For the one I studied with, it is very intensive. It's four years. You can do a first year. That's foundational that. Anyone can do. If you wanna just do it, use it for yourself.
But if you want to be a practitioner, it's a four year rigorous program, meets several times a year for a week at a time or a weekend. And, um, there's, throughout that there's tests, there's written tests, there is performance or you know, actual tests when you're doing it on the body or supervisor is the word I'm looking for.
I just forgot his last name, [:Chris McDonald: So it sounds like you're able to bring in this into regular therapy sessions that you don't have to do separate businesses or.
Mary Grigsby: No, no. I do say no. I ha I do see people for energy medicine. That's just for renew. Just that. Okay. On all kinds of things.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. And I think that's the clarity. Sometimes we have to make sure that clients know if they're coming in, if this, is this just a separate modality or service, or is this going to be an integrated part?
'cause we do have to really look out for ourselves as licensed clinicians. Exactly. Two different things. Right.
Mary Grigsby: I think you definitely need to have separate paperwork.
Chris McDonald: And how does it work with trauma? Is it, has it been helpful in your experience?
Mary Grigsby: Very good with trauma. The in Chinese medicine, triple warmer is considered the fight, governs the fight, flight, or freeze response.
eps the body alive no matter [:Instead of fighting in everything you're trying to do. It really is trying to help you. It thinks. It thinks it's. Keeping you alive about whatever it's trying to do. But oftentimes we don't need all that guarding anymore. It just doesn't know it yet. So we have to help it.
Chris McDonald: So when you say we have to help it, is it an energy, when you say triple warmer, I guess I'm trying to understand what it is.
t feeds. So you'll hear of a [:Triple warmer is one of those branches of that river. It's also a meridian it and it's more than that. Donna really has won in, in Chinese medicine. They don't so much. They do a little bit, but not quite work with it the way we do because she really sees the importance of it in manage in in try to managing our emotional.
Lives. So we really do a whole lot with it. It really is when you say, what is it, it is that part of us that it wants to keep us alive. That will, so if you have a habit, like say you smoke, you know you shouldn't smoke, you know it's not good for your health, and you try to stop, well, triple warm will, will, you know, maybe the first couple of weeks it's okay, and by the third week you just, you, you, you go back again.
ething that keeps our system [:So that's an example of how It's
Chris McDonald: interesting. Yeah.
Mary Grigsby: Yeah. It's, it's really a very, very powerful energy. So it
Chris McDonald: does help for substance abuse. Yes.
Mary Grigsby: Yes, it does very much help for substance abuse. You wanna work a little bit with triple warmer right now? Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that
Chris McDonald: with listeners now too. Yeah.
Mary Grigsby: So notice, just take a quick notice of how you're feeling in your body, your mind, just how are you in this moment?
It's not good or bad. We just wanna notice how it is and then take it. Doesn't matter which hand take the palm or the flat, excuse me, the fingertips of one hand up against your temple. So you wanna put a right on the temple? Yeah. And then you're gonna make a three finger notch with the other hand. So thumb, index finger and middle finger with the other hand.
o at the base of the throat. [:Do you notice anything from that? No. Is always okay Answer.
Chris McDonald: I appreciate your, uh, no is always okay. Notice what you're noticing. Yes, yes. And I don't notice anything yet.
Mary Grigsby: Okay. And you mean way you wanna try the other side? Doing both sides. This is just a mild way of just beginning to calm it down just a little bit.
Chris McDonald: I did notice a little deeper breath.
trying to think which one I [:We're gonna tap. Slowly between the little finger and ring finger of the hand that's on the chest, just several slow taps. So again, now you're getting the, towards the end of the triple warmer meridian. And tapping is one of the ways that can get under its triple warmer's radar, a really slow, gentle tap.
And once again, you might wanna try both sides if you want the other hand. Very slow, gentle
Chris McDonald: tap. I could feel like a calmer response with the other hand that was
Mary Grigsby: Oh, interesting.
ttle, Ooh. Overall like, ah. [:Mary Grigsby: Yeah. So what we're doing with both of these exercises are just sending a little signal to triple warmer that it's okay.
To just relax a little bit. It doesn't have to be on guard right now
Chris McDonald: because I wonder too, 'cause just in all fairness, I'm feeling like pretty good in my window of tolerance today and just feeling just pretty settled, which is good. But I'm wondering if, if I was more activated in some way, would that.
Would I notice more difference maybe?
Mary Grigsby: Yes, probably would. And if you're at the way hyper arousal, yeah. Yeah. You may not, uh, this may not be enough. This would be too Oh, oh, okay. So yes. You would if you're feeling more activated than you are now, and if you're too activated, you probably would be not enough.
olutely. So, I know a lot of [:Mary Grigsby: As I understand it is more, um, I almost say downloaded.
It's, it is, yeah. This is the energy medicine that I do is it's, I wanna say it's very structured. It is in some regards. We work. Like I said, we work with the aura and the chakras and the grid, which is a deep energy system that goes, it's really deep and holds everything in place. We work with the five elements.
We work with a whole lot of different injury systems. So, uh, neuro lymphatic points and neurovascular points and on and on and on. So it's where I think reiki is, is a little bit more, what is the word I'm looking for, Chris? Not downloaded, but sh.
d a little bit more involved [:Yeah, it is. And much more involved. Yeah. Four years at training. That's a lot.
Mary Grigsby: It really was like, I was gonna say, it was going like to med school 'cause it really felt like it was, it was so in depth. Yeah. So intense and very, very well done I have to say.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. 'cause it makes me think too that with more intensive training.
That it's gonna really help your competence to do it too, which, you know, goes into alignment with our ethical considerations that we do have to be competent what we bring into sessions, as opposed to, oh, I did a three day Reiki training. Which can be helpful, but
Mary Grigsby: Yes. Yeah, and I don't, I mean, I think Reiki is great.
I don't, it's, yeah, it's really great. It's just very different.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. But the more we study something too, just like with yoga, the more we're
Mary Grigsby: gonna
Chris McDonald: increase our competence too. And with these practices, it just reminds me a little bit, I know you mentioned the, the traditional Chinese medicine, it, it reminds me of like the meridians that I've heard about with acupuncture.
Yes. Is that the similar,
same thing. We work the same [:Chris McDonald: really? Oh, okay. And as part of what you do too with clients, is it teaching them about what you're doing?
Mary Grigsby: Some people want to know and some people just like just do it. They're just like, just do it.
I always, I, I'll always ask, I would just talk and talk and talk about it. If they wanna know while I'm doing it, I'll definitely tell them. It just depends on the person. Some people don't really care, just want it to feel better.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. How does it, how does it work with chakras?
Mary Grigsby: When I'm doing the kinesiology, my muscle testing to see what the body needs or wants.
If it says chakra clearing is what it wants, then we will do this different kinds of chakra clearings, but we can definitely do a chakra clearing and they're on the front and the back, uh, chakras. So, um, yeah, we're just clear
Chris McDonald: it. And can you talk about the muscle testing? I know we didn't go in depth and that's for people who may not be aware what that is.
e that's associated with it. [:That's the grounding. And then maybe the one I use a lot is the spleen meridian, which the arm is person's arm is right down by their body and my hand is just above their wrist and I'm gonna slightly pull it out to see. If it's, um, if it's a strong or weak. So if that's what we do, we'll use that as a, we'll use that as a test to tell me what's going on with the body.
I dunno if that makes sense. Just a slight,
Chris McDonald: I know. It's harder if we're not doing video.
Mary Grigsby: Yeah, yeah. To, to show it too. Again, it comes out of kinesiology. A lot of chiropractors use them. Yeah. So people who been to a chiropractor who's done that, they might've experienced muscle testing.
Chris McDonald: So that's, that's how you figure out where to go in the session Then.
xt week we're gonna do this. [:Exactly. So they come in and these great plans we had, and uh. That body doesn't want that.
Chris McDonald: The body doesn't want that. Yeah, that's true.
Mary Grigsby: And we, we'll talk about it and then we'll test as to go along and see what the body wants to do. And the way I prefer to do it is test several of the systems, many of the systems to see what's in and what's out.
And then, because I wanna find the cast the biggest net. That's gonna make the most change. So if I just check one system on that's out, well let's correct this one, then we'll check the next system that may not really get at the deeper root. So I try to check as much as I can, and then based on that look and see, okay, where, where is gonna be the biggest bang for our buck?
What's the one thing we're gonna do that's gonna correct most? Of what's out for them and we start there.
b and flow too to see what's [:But I love how you said the body speaks for something different.
Mary Grigsby: Yeah.
Chris McDonald: It's not just them verbalizing
Mary Grigsby: it. It's absolutely the body will. Definitely tell us where it wants us to go and where it doesn't.
Chris McDonald: And how long are these, are these traditional therapy times that you do in a 50 whatever minute session, or
Mary Grigsby: either 50 or an uh, 80 minute, either one.
Oh, okay. Depending on what we're working on. If we may need more time. Yeah,
Chris McDonald: because I wondered if more time might be needed for some of these practices. Therapists, are you wanting to bring yoga into your therapy room but feel unsure what is allowed, what really works, and you wonder where to start. I hear you.
intentional in offering yoga [:Inside, you'll find simple ways to get started, considerations for integrating with trauma, what a session actually looks like when integrated with yoga practices, and so. Much more. This guide gives you practical strategies to start your journey to integrate yoga practices with integrity. Get your free copy today@hcpodcast.org slash top 10 questions.
That's TOP, the number 10 questions. That's HC podcast.org/top 10 questions. It's also in the show notes. Get your guide today. Yeah, so I guess with. The energy medicine too. So where do you see this going? Do you think there could be more integration in the counseling world?
Mary Grigsby: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, because you and I have talked before, there is much more integration.
the The back work. Yeah, but [:And now more and more people are doing all kinds of new tarot and like you said, yoga and reiki and all these kinds of things, which I think are wonderful. We are, we are whole beings and we need to address the whole being. Absolutely. Yeah. And healing does not come in one form. No. And it's not the same for everybody.
Yeah, exactly. Everybody seems D or need a little something different,
Chris McDonald: so we do gotta individualize. But I noticed you have a lot of different other modalities like brain spotting, EMDR, mindfulness, so I'm guessing too that you're very integrative too with pulling in from different areas and Yeah. How do you approach this with clinical theory too?
'cause I know this is not traditional clinical theory, and is there an integration, I guess, with any other theories with energy medicine?
ocused on family systems and [:And the diff the larger system, even the. The extended family, and this strikes me as the same kind of thing. We're looking at the systems of the body and how are they working together or not working together, and where do they need some balance and harmony.
Chris McDonald: Yeah, that's very curious to think about.
Mary Grigsby: Yeah, I love that.
Chris McDonald: So does this integrate with
Mary Grigsby: EMDR or BRAINSPOTTING at all? I have used more with Brainspotting. Well, actually, let me take it back. I was thinking on the table. I will have be working on somebody and have them find a spot, and I'll use Brain on the table with EMDR. What we tend to do with that, there is a, and we can do that one too.
oh my God, we slap our hand. [:The blood leaves are prefrontal cortex. We don't need to strategize. We need to either run like heck or fight like heck. We need, we're into survival, right? So what we do, and you can try this. Place a hand on your forehead and one at the back of your head so that your thumb is at the bottom of the occipital ridge.
And the only downside here is the arms do get tired. So I suggest people do this laying down with their arms propped on pillows. But if you hold your hands like this while you're thinking of a problem, you are retraining the brain. You don't have to react, but you can think your way through a situation.
ck to the prefrontal cortex. [:Mm-hmm. It just helps to calm. System and to bring it into whole different state of being.
Chris McDonald: So even just doing this without, you know, putting a problem or it feels calmer. It's, doesn't it, it does the holding. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I did learn this, this post practice, I call it post practice, um, with some other holding practices.
And I didn't know all the background with what you mentioned, but because it is powerful, right?
Mary Grigsby: This is where, this is one of my favorite Yeah. People only did one. This would be it. This would be the one. Yeah. And so it's so useful. When I was doing my website, which I don't like to do that kind of stuff, I would get frustrated.
ow, it's just so nice. Yeah, [:They're
Chris McDonald: very loving. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because I wonder if, if someone is feeling like something just happened, like you said, I know the impulse is to hit on the front of the forehead, but if they're having trouble, like I can't think. Because it's just happened. I'm having trouble. So is that a good time to try to use that too, just to kind of get the prefrontal cortex working again?
Mary Grigsby: It's not the best one. It is a good word, but you made me think of another one that is really good. Do you want me to show it? Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Mm-hmm. So this is what made when you said that, Chris, yeah. Yeah. What made me think of this exercise is because kind of scattered, I can't scattered, right?
Mm-hmm. Scattered. So if you have a tendency for that or you just, it just comes up, take one ankle and cross it over the other, doesn't matter which one. Okay.
Chris McDonald: Mm-hmm.
back so that the back of the [:So now you're palm to palm. Palm to palm. And then you're gonna curl your hands up. Yeah. Like that. Perfect. So from here you're gonna breathe in through the nose and slightly lift up. Out in the mouth. Gonna do that five times
and one more time.
And slowly unfurl your arms and then cross 'em. The up hands the other way. Had
Chris McDonald: to
Mary Grigsby: think. Yes. It takes a minute to kind of, which way is that? Yeah, that's good for your brain. Right. It's good. Right. And then come back in again. Then cross your ankles the other way. Oh, okay. We're gonna take the breaths again.
what we're doing. So this is [:You've got crosses in your ankle. You've got crosses in your arms. Here it's the, it's like a figure eight. You're getting those crossing paths. Oh, okay. That's what this is doing. So we're gonna, I didn't count how many, but now we're gonna put our fingers all steeple, our fingers all together, and the thumbs go in between the eyebrows, take a deep breath, and then spread the forehead across with thumbs go across the forehead, spreading them.
something and the person is [:So I will do the, I'll sit in that pose while they're talking because it's, I can tell I'm scattered. That's, that's so cool. I love that.
Chris McDonald: Yeah. And the word that came to mind for me was just like, it helps with being clear Yes. That bringing that clarity in some way, because I wonder if that would help with folks with a DHD.
Yes, yes. I see A lot of them
Mary Grigsby: doesn't fix it, but it does
Chris McDonald: not. No. But yeah, so to be able to work with that scattered mind and find that focus and, and just kind of brings everything down. So what is one message you'd like to share with therapists who are listening, who might be considering using some energy medicine but haven't started yet?
Don't be afraid.
our toe into a more holistic [:As much as exactly, and this is, I love that dual
Chris McDonald: benefit.
Mary Grigsby: It is totally a dual benefit, and I love doing adjunct work. I do a lot of adjunct work, so people who, again, they're primary therapists, they're, they're stuck with or there's something going on. Then I'll do the energy medicine on the side and they continue with their therapist.
It works really well.
Chris McDonald: No, I appreciate that. So what's the best way for listeners to find you and learn more about you?
Mary Grigsby: My website is www counseling durham nc.com. Counseling durham nc.com.
Chris McDonald: I will have that in the show notes listeners, so you can find her. But thanks so much, Mary, for coming on the show today.
ate yoga into your work as a [:Doors open again this fall. Be the first to know by joining the wait list. Go to HC podcast.org/yoga collective. That's HC podcast.org/yoga collective. And once again, this is Chris McDonald sending each one of you much light and love. Till next time, take care. Thanks for listening to today's episode. The information in this podcast is for general informational and educational purposes only.
for everyone and is not safe [:Always check with your doctor to see if it's safe for you. If you need a professional, please find the right one for you.
